#18 Cam Zink: More than a legend. A father, a business man and supporter of the next gen of riders

In this episode of the TESTPILOT podcast, Cam shares his journey as a professional mountain biker, entrepreneur, and family man. He discusses the evolution of mountain biking, the importance of community, and the challenges of building a brand in the bike industry. Cam emphasizes the significance of confidence in riding, the balance between fun and performance, and the role of experience in overcoming challenges. He also highlights the importance of giving back to the next generation of riders and reflects on the future of freeride and mountain biking. The conversation culminates in a discussion about the Rampage event and the personal motivations that drive him to continue pushing boundaries in the sport.

Article: https://www.testpilot.bike/en/articles/podcast-cam-zink-bikes

Zink Bikes: https://zink.bike/

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If you enjoyed this podcast and want to get nerdy you can subscribe and also download the episodes with Dave Weagle or Paul Aston. We also have German episodes about 3D printing in the bike industry with Christian Lengwenath from Gravity Components or Sacky from Bikeyoke. Until next time!

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Transcript

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All good. The mics were on this mic or wait, it's not Okay face Yeah, that's from the headphones, but I mean if we got the mic we might as well run it but It doesn't want to allow it It's just using the headphone mic either way if it works for you. I'm good Yeah, we have also some AI plugin on that one. So it means it will optimize anyway afterwards. So yeah, I sent you a script, but we totally not need to stick with that. So it's pretty much an open mic situation. um Yeah, I saw or met you a couple of times, mostly took photos. So you probably wouldn't recognize me now, but it's like 10 years ago. And I don't know, do you remember me or me face? I've met many, many people over the years, right? But you do look familiar for sure. Okay, no worries. Yeah, even all the way back to the final session at post office, I took photos there. I remember you mentioned that in one of the emails, dude. That was a pretty special place, huh? Yeah, wish that... We wish that would... Yeah, it's always the same. You wish it would last forever, but maybe it's part of the game that it will be plowed at some point, these spots, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the amount of careers that were launched from that place and that thrived and then just kind of put a halt to it, right, and changed the whole town. um Unfortunate, but on to the next, I guess. Yeah, we had a similar situation where I grew up and then it lasts for 25 years. It was a private land and it was just like that the local authorities doesn't really liked it. So it got plowed at some point. So it's just a barren land now. It's just nothing there. And it was even, it had a fence around it. So you could close doors so nobody gets hurt. But you had like a starting tower. And this was of course not like within the regulations of a construction. So they took that as an opportunity to say, that's not legal, shut it down. Yeah, it's, it's the thing I've found in any jumps that get plowed, the land turns to a much worse place, right? Like the bums that they, it's usually in an area where there's a little bit of water or there's some, you know, it's nicely tucked away and somewhat hidden. So when people come and build jumps there, keeps the bums out, it cleans up the trash and like does a lot of good things for the area. then as as they plow it. Bums move back in, turns into a bum village. You can't kick the bums out or like, know, just so it's, a, I think we should have a new agenda to add dirt jumps everywhere. Yeah, I said as it's pretty much open mic and then I am prepared like now a little intro. So, but I would say you are a person that doesn't really need an intro. I mean, yeah, I mean, you're a busy man. Like it's not only that you're recognized as a writer, but you founded multiple companies and you're still running them. You just started zinc bikes. You're A father of two? Husband? Like, I think your day has more than 24 hours, does it? I've been very fortunate to have an amazing wife and she's, I guess she's fortunate that she doesn't have, that she can be a stay-at-home mom, but fortunately, you know, that we have, it's never a dull moment, but we have, you know, I have amazing help and I still get to go surf with my kids and whatnot. Cause that's like. one of the sports that my son's into surfing and skating. So I get to go surf and skate with him. And that seems like just a fun, you know, day off, but it's also like that would be also taking him to the soccer field type of thing, you know? So it's, yeah, we have a good balance. But yes, there is never, and I have good help with like my brother and Inga and some other people like, like Howie helps me with census and Inga helps me with zinc bikes. We're developing like a bigger team now. And Cody Wilkins. pretty much runs a show at Census Rad Trails and I just like get to advise and come in when I have time. But around this time of year, coming up before Rampage is the only event I really care about anymore. It's uh full on like I'm just focusing on writing and try to push everything else off to the side until after October. So you started your first company in 2009, I think that's 16ish years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, the first like samples, I guess, in 09 and then like launch census in 2010. So is this like, mean, not every writer out there is also a businessman like you are. So is this something you realized the moment you turned pro that there is a time you might not be writing all the time, so you're building already into the future? Yeah, it's, mean, it's hard to have that not in your mind at least a little bit. Um, especially when you started to have some injuries and you have a bunch of downtime. mean, especially knee surgeries, take forever to heal and it's, not painful. feel so you just need, you need to occupy your mind to keep yourself from trying to get back on the bike too early. And, but my, my dad was a bit of an entrepreneur. He's he had a t-shirt screen printing business and. I just always looked up to that. always thought that owning your own business was the coolest thing ever. And I guess cut from the same cloth of not really being that hireable. I don't want to, I don't think, and then on that note of like riding a bike for a living and not going to school and everything, you just kind of. you know, you feel like you're lacking business experience. Like I just want to be my own boss and set my own schedule and you know, rather have a smaller scale business than work for a giant corporate empire and have too much structure. And the thing that excite me about riding a bike for a living is the lack of structure and the freedom. You know, if it's, if it's just rain, then we get to go ride. And if, and if your friends are, are riding and they're having a good session, then you can put everything else off and go focus on that. Cause that's your job. Um, and I really appreciate that with having been able to make your own schedule with business, but then you have to be conscious of other people's schedules that are working for you or helping you along. uh But yes, it was a bit innate in my upbringing of wanting to be in my own business, but then it really started becoming prevalent after some knee surgeries. I really want to start this brand and it's, turned into a really great creative outlet. And cause I'm not the most artistic person, but you know, everyone has a little bit that in them and this and creating logos and creating a brand and designing things is, it is my favorite type of art or something that I really enjoy. And it's been, um, it's very cool that essentially put me through my own form of business school. And that led into giving me enough clout. and experience to where I honestly ask YT to let me run the US operation before they launched it, without just sounding like some random writer. They knew they had at least enough business experience. But then even as a writer, you get a lot of business experience along the way. I always tell the younger kids, just pay attention. You have a lot of... You know, you're privy, you're privileged to meeting CMOs and CEOs and, and product design and R and D and, know, you just think that you're just a writer that doesn't know anything. but, and even if they do treat you like that, you still are privileged to getting, you know, you're getting a seat at the table here and there and just listen and pay attention and pick up whatever you can and build those relationships. Cause there's, you know, as long you're asking questions and you're paying attention, you can learn exponential amounts. a business experience even just by riding a bike for a living. And also like the bike industry, every new product, if I mean, you potentially experienced that by with your company's census, when going to Asia and you need to figure out like molds and manufacturing, everything, it's not easy. And it's always a learning curve and you always start from the bottom. So there is no like apprentice way or internship that can teach you that it's like a very specific skillset. And as you said, I think. If you're a pro rider, you already have that drive within you. So you can actually push that agenda, right? Yeah, I think the critical thinking and problem solving and grit. think grit is just the most important in just overcoming adversity. And we got a problem not, no, we're done. It's OK, let's figure this out so I can land this trick. Let's figure this out so I can win this contest or win the race or let's figure out so I can get this product out. And I was really fortunate that grip seemed like it just worked. It's way in a few different reasons just serendipitously to where like they're the only things on my bike that I wasn't sponsored for and I kept buying them because I was trying to find a better one. I was honestly looking for a better grip. So that's a cool story. It's authentic. They're made right in Southern California. So I actually didn't have to travel to Asia for years and years until we started. I got pedals are made in Taiwan and some other things and tailgate pads and Things like that, but the grips have always been made in America and Southern California. So that was a perfect lower cost, like grip molds, even then were over 10 grand. So it's not like nothing bearer of entry, but, um, it's, know, far less than starting a tire or building a frame or, or anything like that. So. Very entry wasn't too big. The minimums weren't too high. It's low cost per unit. And then I could. you know, give them to all my friends, you know, just shuffle them out because they're, um, you know, you get, get like a homie hookup and then they would be willing to ride your brand more than someone else is not paying them. You know, a lot of things just kind of lined up with it. yeah, it was great. It's you just figure it out along the way. And then when I was done, um, through my five years of not having, you know, of, knee surgeries and not being able to ride in the winter and Then my brother kind of was able to run the day to day and ship packages and stuff because I was literally just shipping packages went on my downtime and in between events and everything and and but it's cool. It's it's fun to look back on that. And you have the opportunity. mean, you said like you tried all out the offerings out of the market, the different grips and try to find something you like. And when you doing your own grip, you can do exactly what you like. I mean, you're building. oh you have to, I mean, I think in hindsight, I got fairly lucky on the first grip because it is perfect and it's still the only one that I still run. But you don't get a second shot on a mold. you make a mistake or want to make an adjustment, it's pretty much the same cost to adjust that and make an alteration than it would be to create a whole new mold. pretty much like... make a guess. There's no 3D printers then there's no way to like feel it before you like drop in on a$10,000 mold and but it's still the my favorite grip. It's perfect. It's the only one to run unless I'm like testing the new models and but it's pretty funny. It's still the I don't know if it's the flange or obviously more people want lock-ons then then slip on grips, but it's our least selling grip and it's my the only one I still run my favorite one. It's pretty funny. Yeah, and you can just keep your keeping it going. Like Inga said, you had like seven prototypes. I mean, you're now building bikes. Yeah. yeah, I've Yeah, I started I I just same idea so that's that's what's really cool and when you when you realize that you have an authentic story and this isn't Trying to create a marketing scheme. It's like I literally want a bike because all these chainstays are too long everyone's putting their pivots higher and they're You know, they the manufacturers want the shock manufacturers want them to make it more linear so that they can control this better and you're like That's antithesis of what I want. so I have an authentic need for it. I'm just bro rider over here looking for something different that doesn't exist. Like that's the perfect story, right? And it's not fabricating anything. And I just decided to start playing around on the linkage programs and uh started, we have a good vendor and trade agent and some relationships in Taiwan and. They've been super good with helping me engineer some, you know, playing around. was playing around with really high bottom brackets. was playing, you know, cause they might bunny hop better. They might feel better. It might run more sag less. was experimenting with a lot of different things. And then, you know, after five years or so, and, know, or five, six prototypes, you know, over the course of over four years, it's like, this is the perfect bike, right? uh and first and foremost for myself, but hopefully everyone else loves it too. And so far, so far, it's been even better than I anticipated because I've heard a few of the customers say that the confidence that this gives me is incredible. like, didn't even have to say it because one of my, essentially advisors, so Pablo Tafoya, he started Corsair bikes or he was the head engineer there and I rode for them in 2010. He's a dear friend. He's the one that gave me my Cadillac after I won the FMB world title. He gave me a 59 Coupe Deville, dear friend. he's, I remember when we were planning the brand building for Zink bikes, he's like, you're not selling bikes, you're selling confidence. And this has been something that's been in my mind of trying to find a way to. convey that to the customers hadn't even created a marketing platform for this. Like hadn't even created like any sort of activation for, for this inspires confidence. And lo and behold, that's what the customers are telling me. So it's been, it's incredible. Yeah. Super stoked to, you know, have an, have an idea, go out on a limb, you know, I've never designed a bike before figured out and then have people like bring. circle back to me the thing that I'm trying to provide is incredible. Do you think like there had been also a, how you say that? Had there been the lack of products like your bike? I mean, there is a movement and you see like now in the pandemic, everybody hopped on bikes. Like they try to, they building bikes now for, which is not a bad thing. Don't get me wrong. I mean, they're building mainstream bikes and they're If you go to the local jump spots and like to the super nerds, those who dig, they take a shuffle, they plant trails, those that live and breathe bikes, they have maybe a different need in regards of how a bike behaves, functions, feels. And I saw like on one of our local bigger jump spots, they even running back in the days, Essex trails now, like putting a 27 upfront, 26 in the rear. and they have a blast on it because it's all 29, it's all like fast, easy riding bikes and maybe lacking pop. Yeah, yeah, it was it's kind of the the life and death of the industry with the new it you need a new advancement you need a technological advancement and like you have a dropper post Fantastic one of the greatest inventions ever, you know, even electric shifting and eagle and single ring and all these they're great But then they try to make the next new SX trail like I remember the first SX trail because Kyle Kyle straight road for specialized when they came out with that and it was it was a fantastic bike. And then the next model, they changed something, it wasn't as good. And then the next model, wasn't as good. Same thing with even the YT2 as like the first gen, I think it was the MK4, the first carbon one that they made was still, I think besides my downhill bike Proto, my favorite downhill bike I've ever ridden. Gwyn won a ton of World Cups on it. And then it just started getting not as fun and not as good of a bike for what we do. Maybe it's a better race bike. I don't know, but it's not better for the consumer. And same thing with specialized and certain models of the demo. uh They think they need to keep advancing it when something was perfect, like something was awesome, like don't need to mess with it. So that's where I'm trying to bring in a lot more artwork to where you don't have to antiquate the previous model because you have the newest, greatest advancement, you need to buy the new one. It's like, some new art on, let's try to get the new graphic. want the new graphic. And maybe we'll make, we found something that we're to use maybe a better bearing here or something, or maybe, maybe there's like a minute, but we're not trying to redesign the whole thing. Cause it's like, honestly, it's perfect. It's, it's exactly what I want. So the, the industry sometimes eats itself to death. Sometimes it's just the striving for, for the next greatest advancement, but it's also. what separates it from BMX as well. Like BMX isn't selling, the industry isn't nearly as healthy in that, you know, because there's a lot of people with money in mountain biking and they do want a mechanical advantage and sometimes it's there, but a lot of times with the bikes, it's kind of goes backwards. And I think that that's what we've experienced. Everything is in, and you mentioned the better riders, it's not necessarily even the better riders. I think that, right, The vacay, the first zinc model is easier to ride for people, like for a beginner because you're not, I mean, I guess on a more higher pivot stuff, you can just kind of be a passenger, but if you're doing any sort of jumps or snapping any sort of turns, uh it's more difficult with a higher pivot or a wheel base that grows. so that's my next goal here is that this is not just a freeride bike, because it's okay that most people think that. It's obvious that I'm mainly a freerider, but I think the next goal is to show that this is not just a freeride bike. It is supposed to be the most fun bike for all skill levels and fully capable for a pro, but like even for my daughter who doesn't ride very much, it's perfect for her. I have, I experienced it many times that when I adapted slowly to 27.5, 29, um, at some point I was so used to 29 that I thought this is the status quo. This is how a bike should feel. And then when I went back, like on one of these bikes, you still have in the basement and you just put, pull out on a two times a year going on a jump spot or anything. And it suddenly feels weird because you're not used to it anymore. but you realize, wait a minute, it's tinier wheels, 26, 27, anything, and it's still more fun. So I personally think that sometimes if you over-engineer a bike in a way that it's too easy to ride, it's taking away the fun. It's just like a car with launch control. So you can go, you push a button, go zero to 60 in whatever, but it's not manual shift, it's not the same. Yeah, you don't want a Tesla, right? You want a 911 with a manual gearbox. You want it. You'd know that then it being a full rear engine isn't going to be technically as fast or, you know, physics of a mid engine or technically better, but you like the feel of the swing of the rear end and there being a rear engine and a manual gearbox, right? And I completely agree. And I think that the brakes and the tires and these little things that Like if you put those on an old bike, you're kind of set. Like, cause there's a few things that have gotten exponentially better, but the, the old bikes are, are amazing. Like they're, I think we tend to, it's kind of warped people's minds because I remember like people are saying, Oh dude, can you imagine doing that on 26s? And it's like, people did way gnarlier than that on 26. Like if we go watch a Sam Hill run or go watch like go watch rampage like 2012 even when everyone was still on 26s and the things that were happening. I remember even hearing Laurie Greenland was testing 26s and said that he was faster on a certain track. You never know. And that's just all anecdotal, but it's cool that it's going more like a surfboard. Like, I pulled this old one out. This thing is so good. And it had a perfect shape to it. or even old snowboards are the same thing. Everything's going to be full rocker. Now, oh we're going back to the old school that was, we thought was antiquated, but now that's the way. uh And we're talking about that. made me think of uh Greg Hunt, who's that F1, it's Greg Hunt, right? That was in the, was a former F1 driver and in Nicky Lauda's era. And I may have gotten his name wrong, but is the, the English ah protagonist in the film with Nicky Lauda. And yeah, and he was saying that his favorite car he's ever driven was like, it was like almost a van. wasn't even, it wasn't a race car by any means, but it was more fun because it was so easy to get to its limit that it wasn't deathifying, you know? So I had, and Kurt Vorhees said this when they started doing 29 wheels in downhill, he's like, people are just gonna go so fast until it just gets too dangerous and they start dying. Like, a 29er might be faster down a World Cup track, but it's not as fun and you're also getting to speeds to where it's just obscene and much more dangerous where you can get the same feeling, like going a little bit slower and it's just a different style of riding, right? It's the same absolutely like I've worked for MTV News many years and one of the last downhill bikes I reviewed was the first to is 29 and I have a downhill like just German serious background But I realized with this bike. Wait a second. This is maybe too gnarly and I need to go maybe to a limit or to a speed that actually makes for much higher consequences. And so do I want to be in that speed window to enjoy the bike? Because it only will, it's only enjoyable for me if I'm riding it that fast. So if I go slower or the bike actually makes it harder for me, and this is like a really hard point to debate with many people, if you're restricting yourself in regards of travel, geometry or anything, but you're still having a blast on it. Is this wrong? Or because not everyone is a racer. It's not like the clock is ticking on every trail, right? It's just we are out there to have some fun. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's why I'm in this genre of the sport, right? Because I am trying to push myself constantly and try to find something that makes me feel full and like I'm progressing and it doesn't have to be against the clock and competing against the clock continuously will drain you unless you are training 100%. And even that at an older age, you're there's no way you're be able compete with your younger self, let alone the next generation of younger self. And it is, it's always about competing with yourself and progressing yourself and getting the feeling, even relearning. Like I was trying to relearn some tricks yesterday that I did 15 years ago, but like that's enough to like, you know, you need, you need a progression. You need to have like a good sesh to where it was worthwhile, or you hit that one corner a little bit better than you did before. It's not, it's not all contingent upon a time or you know, or a race win, of course, but even just necessarily the milliseconds you're taking off. I mean, I completely agree with that. So, so how is it like now with you having a product maybe circle back to that one that really fills the gap on that one? Is that right? I mean, I can't really think of any other company providing, okay, specialized status maybe. This is like one, it's budget friendly for kids who may have not as much money and you're also quite reasonably priced, but I can't think of any other brand offering yeah, and I think that the status would be probably the closest bike to ours. I, but it still blows me away how long the chainstays are and how high the BB is. And it's kind of, um, yeah, I think, I think that even the last year's status or maybe two years ago was honestly a little bit better. So there's there, they're turning it more into, I guess, bit of a park bike, you know, like a little bit, think they have to travel on it, but the chain stays still along and the BB is still high. you can have, I don't know. I, regardless, I think that would probably be the closest thing to the vacay. And, I've, I see these other companies like propane and a few others that are marketing their current bike, whatever it may be, whatever it was intended for, whatever. Whoever whomever designed it as a free ride bike now. So I guess that gives me some, some good, good motivation that there are many, if they, if they have a lot of people in that company that are really good at their job and marketing, and they're trying to establish that there is a hole in the market of free ride, but they're just going to brand whatever bike they had as a free ride bike. Now it gives me high hopes that there's enough people out there that do want a free ride bike, but Same time, I want to show people this is uh just a great mountain bike, like free trail, free ride, free mountain bike, whatever. Do you think that the term free ride is making a comeback? I do. and it's, think it kind of crept up on me. People like Braga and a lot of the, a lot of the younger kids that they'll, they'll, they'll reference a song from new disorder that some of before they were even born, they're like, this was the sickest. Like, so when I was a kid, I'd look back at old snowboard films and stuff like that. Cause there was no old free ride films when I grew up. Right. uh that I could like look back on anything before I was born, but snowboarding and stuff and like, this was the sickest. you, you feel cool that you discovered that band or you knew that video back then or you got, and, I see the kids it's come the time when people, the kids are stoked that they found neural disorder five and that they're like referencing this song. And I think it's awesome. I think that the free, the free guys for sure making a, making a comeback, thanks to people like Braga and, and, um, keeping it core. and the In the Hills gang and a lot of, even Talis and all these, uh the next generation is awesome. And it's an honor that they respect the heritage and kind of what we've worked so hard for. Absolutely, absolutely. mean, and I don't want no don't get us wrong here. We're not picking on racers I mean, it's absolutely stunning what they do and just like at the current footage if you look at sleeper stuff and All the video guys that upping the game right now It's just insane it what those guys pulling off they're even having fun on it. And what was the five deaf guy called from? He did just pull the Acer. Yeah, he just pulled the backflip Yeah. Yeah. Even. And. Yeah. And 10. Teo did too. Teo from South Africa. He He did one on that jump as well. But that's a I'm a fan of racing no matter what. Like I even if I'm not trying to go race, I am. I grew up. That's what I love. Like watching it is like I love my favorite sports to watch or World Cup downhill and supercross and motocross. And but I'm And I do, I race a little bit of moto, but it's more just like that. just, it's incredibly enjoyable to watch, but to dedicate, you know, your life to race is it's tough. It's extremely hard. It's a, it's brutal. And you know, you could be just a second off and never see sniff the top 10 or, know, it gets cut pretty gnarly. But, um, yeah, Jackson and ACE are, are two of my two favorite racers right now. And Troy, Troy has always been my favorite as well. So um you're also pushing like you mentioned Braga, but Braga is it's already is a, how old is it? 30-ish almost? I don't know if he's even 30. I think he's I mean, we could we could Google it real quick. But he's I think he's I think he's I think he's younger than 30. But I just I just brought him up because he's the one that is like every every free outer. That's the beauty of you can ride hardtails. And you know, your sponsors stocked on that you can ride a little bit of slope style, you can ride some trail you can ride this. But I just brought him up because he's like, only like he is true to the core and it's working for him. Right? It's it's he came up with an own style. Yeah, yeah. It's not even necessarily like coming up with something new. It's just like sticking to his core. And he's like, I'm not wearing that jersey. I'm not like, and I think that's great. I mean, I'm, I'm constantly blown away with how many views this stuff gets and, and how much traction he gets, but he's, he's putting on his own trips. He's creating his own videos. He's, ah but the, the thing that is, is really eye opening. that's that you can still make work in this era with racing being so strong is that like you, if you find your, your niche and you don't have to do it all. Cause like, remember like Kyle and I would be traveling to Europe with, we've got our hard tail for 26 tricks that we're also going to race and four cross at the world cup. And then we're our downhill. We got to bring it down. So we had, and we're bringing a slope bike for like Solbach slope style. So we would be racing and slope style and then come home and film and ride down, like, um, which I really enjoy. think it's what made me who I am, like being a well-rounded rider. But, but I think it's cool nowadays that it's gotten so big that you could focus on one thing. Like you could, you could be just a downhill racer. It could be just a big mountain free rider. You could be just a slope style guy. could, you know, um, it's gotten big enough to where you can do that. I think it's great. With your invitational, I mean, do you think there is for people that have been in the industry or a pro writer for many years that they have somewhat of a responsibility to give something back to the Grums to support the next gen? I mean, I'm thinking of Weston, just like insane. Weston Lucas. yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's an honor and a privilege, right? I mean, if you if you find yourself in a position to where you can give back, you should, mean, any any genre of life, right? Like, if you're financially stable, you should be trying to donate some money to help those that are needy. And, and the same with with your time and resources with being a professional mountain biker and having this land that you you could, you couldn't invite people to help cultivate their career. And I remember Pastrana, like back, back when people first started learning backflips on motorcycles, there weren't many foam pits, there weren't many ways that you could ever do it. And Pastrana allowed his greatest competitor at the time, Nate Adams, to come learn backflips on his own foam pit, you know, just because that's the right thing to do. And, and I've, I've always tried to to look at and even though I'm not going to be competing with Wes anytime soon, you know, but even when I do, think it'd be an honor that I've, you know, helped, helped him in any way. Cause he will be one of the greatest ever do it. And, but with my land it's and being able to hold an event and bring the youth and give them a spot is it's an honor. It's an honor and a privilege. it's, even have, so like, even though Ryan Schoeckler, the pro skateboarder, He lives in San Clemente here and he has his private, um, skate park in town and a warehouse. And he decided to make it, uh, kids camp like skate park as well. So you can like my, take my son there all the time and you pay 30 bucks for the hour. And there's a bunch of kids rolling around and they're getting coached on like the private thing. I'm like, this is kind of like my land, but I don't charge anyone, but it's kind of the same idea that if I have all this, that for me to ride like the greatest training grounds might as well try to bring as many people as possible and help cultivate their career. And then when there aren't any big mountain free ride events and there aren't many events for these kids can make a name because the talent pool is getting so deep now, but there's only one big free ride event and there's only 18 spots in it. How do you get your name out? Right. And how do you, so try to give them platform. And, I think, yeah, I think Wes is well, before Wes, Taulus who won it. And then now he's in rampage and then Hayden Zablotny and he won and then now he's in rampage and Aiden Parish won my event this year and he got a spot in rampage. it's, that is the coolest proof of concept for the event. And that I didn't really originally set out for, but it's like, it's, it's so sick to see. And obviously Wes has made massive waves and the greatest 10 year old to ever do it. And just keeps getting better. I keep saying. Like he's so good for 10. It's like, no, he's at the point to where he's just really good for anyone, period, irregardless of age. And then, yeah, he's only 10 years old and he just keeps getting better and better. It's pretty remarkable and inspiring. Is this something that is quite unique to the mountain bike scene that we are in contact with different age groups and generations? It's not like if you're playing soccer or football, it's one tiny gap of age, maybe at least or maximum 10 years. And we like now can go out there and have grumps, maybe... six to eight years old and you're the old guy teaching them like building just a tiny kicker somewhere and just enjoying a good time out there and teach them something. Yeah, I don't think it's completely unique to mountain biking, but a little bit more with action sports, I guess, because the physical stature of an adult versus a kid on a football field is obviously not going to ever work out. And even in basketball or any, mainly any team sports, right? Or combat sports or, know, MMA or like, but for action sports, it does lend itself well to where like, Kelly Slater winning pipe at 49, or, you know, one week shy of being 50. Um, but then also there's, you know, 17 year olds on tour, 18 year olds on tour. Um, and then he could go surf with, with some Grom's that are shredding, you know, um, it's like skateboarding as well. There's nine year olds doing the mega ramp and then there's also, you know, the older dudes like Bob Burnkos was doing mega ramp until he was, I think, till he was 30. you know, late thirties as well and probably, and I think he's still skating it, over well, well over 40, but, um, Tony Hawk still skating bird at over 50. Uh, I think that it's there, there are more dangerous sports, but you can, it lends itself a little more freedom to where you can pick and choose your own battles. And you're not directly competing head to head with someone like at a, on a football field that you could, you know, your, your destiny isn't necessarily in your hands. Someone else could take you out, but with, with. with the action sports you can pick and choose. All today's not the day or I'm sore or I'm stiff or my knees are swollen or, and now I'm not, these ones have caused me trouble in the past. So I'm only going to focus on these ones, but then still, you know, the experience and the wisdom, especially in big mountain will, will help keep you, give you, give you that edge, right? To help keep you, keep you above the next crowd. And same thing with big mountain snowboarding and skiing where the Slope style is a little bit more of the young man's game. It's a little bit more like gymnastics. And then the big mountain stuff requires a lot more experience, especially with avalanches and what like that. But even for us, there's a lot of things that you pick up and can, you know, capitalize on your wisdom and years of doing it. Even if you're not quite as tenacious as it used to be, or, you know, quite, quite as strong. And, but right now I feel about as strong as ever have. I'm People keep saying how old I am, I feel like uh besides like my current like nagging wrist injuries, uh I feel like a spring chicken some days, right? And it's awesome. I'm uh really stoked that I'm still able to do it at I turned 40 in March. I'm very, very, very, very stoked that I'm able to still do it. So 44 here. yeah, it's, yeah. Some stuff still goes and others it's harder. yeah, you say nagging wrist, nagging back. You call it. But there's an elephant in the room. Are you going to pull off rampage again? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Absolutely. I don't I don't really feel bad about saying it about my wife because like she's like she they my family doesn't really want me to go because it puts them through a lot of stress. And I understand that and I respect that. It's not saying like, oh, they don't want me to go, you know, that what do they know? I truly respect it. But I just tell them this is this is my life. I still feel extremely capable. I am not going out. Like I did last year, and know, as my, wouldn't be my last event to get helicoptered out and never see it again. Um, but also I just feel fully capable and it's like, if I was my age, but hadn't had this career path, I I wouldn't be pushing as hard. need a yesterday riding the airbag with Kyle and Dennis Anderson and Eddie Reynolds. And so we got an 18 year old who's, know, on the. the bottom of the bell curve at his career. then Kyle and I are in the latter years of our career and we have a BMX are coming in. Like that is so rad to be able to like build off of that and feel the energy and like going to wooly fest and all the kids are just going so hard. Like if I wasn't in, like, if it wasn't my job, I wouldn't be like as motivated. And I wouldn't, I probably wouldn't enjoy riding quite as much because I didn't have as much that. that little bit extra motivation. Cause you're like, Oh, I don't have to do that jump by any means. And I got to go to work on Monday and there, know, but since it is my job, I'm like, I've, it gives me that little bit extra motivation, um, to stay healthy, to stay motivated and to stay in it and give that little bit nudge to, help keep you. then as soon as you do, then you get that feeling that you've had that you, that got you into the sport and you get to just, I don't know, live. Everything subsequent to that in that day, everything after that in the day, you're like, ah, this is such a good day. It's such an awesome day. I just had the best session. And because you pushed yourself just that little bit extra, right? And I've been fortunate enough, like the sponsors to back me and all these other things that push you over the edge a little bit more to do. It's not like doing something you wouldn't want to do originally. It just gives you that little bit extra to do what you wanted to and overcome the fear a little bit better. Right. how would you explain to a total outsider of the sport? I mean, Rampage is an event that actually makes it out of our mountain bike bubble into the mainstream media. And like if my neighbor, he's just like in doing regular sports, but the idea of like doing a 360 or even just jumping down a cliff is insane, literally insane to him. So how would you explain? I tried to explain it to them because I said, it's not like you are a mountain biker and at some day you decide to toss yourself down a 60 footer, whatever. It's just like you work yourself up there. How you could, how could you explain that, that this is not something out of control? It's, it's, it's like anything that, know, that if I think it was a Mark Twain quote that the river loses, it's a lure when you understand hydrodynamics, you know, you're like, you just look at something and off, you don't understand it, but then the more you do it, it just becomes normal. And, and we're like, I have to remind myself of how capable I am sometimes because you look at something and it might not make sense, but then you, as soon as you put your feet on the pedals and do a run, you're like, I feel this. I get lines up in your head and you can see the angles and you can, but even watching someone else ride some jump, sometimes you're like, hell no. That looks like it looks like, is that? I can't do that. You know? But then as soon as you put your feet on the pedals and you start trusting it and going in, then it, becomes exponentially easier because you're putting the trust back into everything that you've built and everything that you've worked for. And even just yesterday, I heard some, another F1 comment of a of a F2 driver or they're in one of their first races and they couldn't do one practice and they went and watched from the sideline and they literally said that like, this is crazy. I can't do that. But then like when you watch from outside perspective, but when you're in it, it is uh just going back to like the goal is autopilot, right? To where you're not thinking at all. And that's, that's the dream. That's the goal. That's the best feeling to where you just let it happen because you've, you know, built up all the skill your whole life. And it's a pretty special place to be. Like any sport, you you put in the time, try to keep the injuries to a minimum and you'll eventually be everything you wanted to be. You mentioned you visualizing it in your head. How does that look like? I I try to talk more about this, how I visualize things I do on a bike to outsiders and realize that like not everybody is the same or visualizing in the same way. So if you close your eyes and you imagine, we talked about this in the email before in 2014, You did this 360 drop at rampage. And I, I watched you and it took some photos while you're standing on the edge. What's going on in your head? Like how you think about doing this, how you making it work before you actually making it work. It's evolved for sure by my own process and that one in particular, mean, maybe it was the heat of the moment and just being in such a good mental space of confidence and everything, but that one didn't seem that crazy at the time, you know? But that is the, 14 and 15, that was the biggest three drop ever done. But at the time, I'm capable, this is it. What do I need? I need to figure out my speed. I need to visualize the rotation. I need to make sure the landing is good. If something went wrong, try to avoid this run out, try to avoid that run out. But that one, like a mill went over there and then he felt the need to tell me how crazy that was. And I'm out people that have like, let's go check out the old site. And then they'll go check out that drop and they'd be like, I can't believe it. And then I feel the same way now, but. It's just, it's just a testament to where I was at that, that point, just so hungry to win and so confident in my abilities that it didn't, didn't seem like it was big for sure, but it didn't seem that far fetched. And now when look back, I'm like, that one was pretty special. Like that was, that was a, that was super heavy. And I did it over the course of those two years, four times, I think. Right. Um, and it was perfect each time. Um, but, uh The visualizing is it's I heard in Cirque du Soleil, the, you know, the circuses and stuff they, they visualize and when they have a glitch in it, so say, close your eyes, you try to run through a trick and then there's a spot where there's a block. Like that is the moment or body positioning that you need to work on. So picking up things like that along the years, along the years of, know, I would use to just keep doing it until I could visualize it. And then I'm like, okay, that's. I got it now. I can do it. I got it. I can visualize it. And then after hearing that, I'm like, okay. So I was just working through that moment. But now that I know that I'm like, okay, when I come to that block, I realized that this is the port, the part to where I might not be in the right body positioning. And, the mind's incredible thing. You know, I've, I heard on a Rogan podcast that they even visual their stats on even visualizing weightlifting, how there's, there is a noticeable. documented percentage gain in being able to visualize doing 12 reps and, then actually doing it far better than if you didn't visualize it. And that's just lifting weights, right? So just seeing yourself doing it, believing that you can do it. And Sam Hill apparently could, could visualize a race run and start the clock at the top in his head and then be within a second or two. Like that's, that is just a master. mind. Like that is that is like the greatest race mind. Like if I if I did that on a race run, I wouldn't even it'd be so far off. But I'm not I'm not a racer anymore. And that's what I haven't you know, I haven't raced World Cups in 18 years or 19 years now. But it's a it's a visualization is key, though. It's it's it's everything. And if you if you can, I've found it might take a thousand times in my head, it might take 10. You know, but as soon as I have it in my head and I saw it, I'm like, I can trust that I'm capable and it's going to be all right. Or at least you're going to at least get to a safe zone to where then it's another crash or hopefully, you know, but you're not going to like visualize a backflip and then just all of a sudden make it halfway. Like, you know, that you can at least get to a safe zone and things you're going to be, you're going to be all right. Do you think like with all the slope style elements and maybe also Rampage got more slope style elements that it's moving towards something that you could call gymnastics? Like Olympic style, visualizing, doing it on the bars, on the rings, trampoline? I, it's inevitably going to a little bit. think the biggest thing is it's everything's going to progress and you can't, you can kind of steer the ship, but you can't, you know, you can't have a picture of what this is going to be in 10 years and it's just going to fit the mold. It, when they added water, that was the greatest advent to the event or they pump it from a back spring all the way up to the top of the mountain to some 500 gallon tanks. And then we have hoses running down that we can tap into and you bring your own 150, 200 foot length of hose and you could tap in somewhere along the ridge and go water something. It's made it far safer, like to where we can actually build berms and bigger bench cuts and catches at the bottom of a chute where it would have taken an eternity to do it before. You wouldn't have the amount of time that you needed in the dig days. So all these things are great advents to the event, but then also that lends itself to creating like much greater because the dirt out there is amazing. You just need to add water. So like the to add a perfect jump on a ridge that you could find in a just a dirt jump park or you know obviously built for big bikes and then what are you going to do? Of course you're going to try to do the biggest best tricks you can on it but fortunately there's been you know there's been some checks and balances of like Antoine doing a double flip one year and they scored it like crazy even though he had a pretty mediocre run up until that point, but did a double flip at the bottom. And then they, you know, people realize this isn't the direction we want to go. So then the next year when he did kind of the same thing and even better on up top, he got scored severely lower. So it is a contest. You can do what you want. You can live out your own hopes and dreams, irregardless of whatever the judges want. But if you're there to compete, you know, you kind of try to appease the judges. And luckily the judges have been, um, it's there's, By nature, it's subjective and there's always some discrepancies, but it's, um, it's definitely getting the biggest things are usually getting rewarded. But then we got like Tom last year who did the greatest thing you could have possibly done the mountain gracing the day. think the gnarliest thing done in any rampage, the 75 foot front flip step down. Um, and then getting forth, I think that was an atrocity, but Um, it's my opinion, right? And that's, it's subjective and, and I don't, um, I think it's, I think it's still in a good spot though. It's, it's in a great spot to where I just hope they judge the shoots more than a trick on a jump. You said your family is maybe not in the biggest fan of you re-entering another time for Rampage because of all the stress. I mean you have two kids, so there is a lot of time management involved. You want to spend time with the kids, you run companies, you're a pro bike rider. So how is that? Like how you pull that one off? I don't know. I honestly don't know. I just try to, I take it. I try to take advantage of every bit I can get on the bike. And if I'm even just swimming with my kid last night, I was, I got a kettlebell and I'll walk it to the deep end and do like the Navy seal jumps to where you're jumping from the bottom and then breathing and then do any, any opportunity you get to like give yourself a little bit of a workout or a little bit of a bun, like even surfing. I'll try to put myself in the start gate rampage and just say like, okay, this is picture yourself there. Do your little breathing technique and try to focus and try to get into a flow state. Even though it's on a wave, it's still a sport to where you're, you know, using your coordination and, trying to make it happen on this moment. You know, any all throughout the day, it's never not on my mind. And I think there's, there's some other opportunities to where you don't necessarily need to be on the bike to be. staying fresh and staying sharp. But then when I am on the bike, you know, this is, this is toward a big goal and I'm there to enjoy myself and I was still just enjoy riding my bike, but it's always working toward the, toward the end goal of being better and peaking at the right time. and so it's, yeah, you just find, find the opportunities when you can get them, guess. Are your kids inspired by what you do? I think they are. I don't think they would necessarily like tell me or say it that much, but I get the inclinations and the things of, you know, something they might've said to one of their friends or, you know, things like that. And I think that they are, and that's another motivation too, to practice what you preach and try to show them, don't let fear borrow you from your dreams and don't let... what other people say, keep you from doing what you want to do and what you know is right, what makes you full. And, and I just try to remind them that it's always scary to be in the passenger seat of someone else's driving because you, you're not in control. like, I'm in control and I feel good about this. And, and although it's, it's inherently extremely dangerous, but I feel far better about it than you do, cause you're not in control, you know, so just try to remind them, them of that and try to lead. good example, show them this is, you know, we live an incredible life. And it's not because I, you know, walked away from the cliff is because I, you know, like found found the best way to jump off of it in the safest way and, and at the right time, like, like, I'm not spinning 40 foot cliffs every day, but out there, it's built right, we try to build as safe as we can, the world's watching, and there's a lot on the line. And ah it's, it's like, Catching lightning in a bottle out there, it's awesome. There's nothing I can add. I mean, that's a perfect wrap up. Thank you for taking the time. I mean, it's pretty awesome. You're doing this for all these years over decades and then still doing strong as a pro and wish you all the best for rejoining Rampage and... Yeah. Um, it's, yeah, I, I greatly appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. Great. I appreciate the time. And in fact, do you want me on the podcast? Right. I guess means I'm doing my job and, and it, it also helps promote the brands and it's great. Yeah. I'm really stoked to be on my production sample for the downhill bike out there and add another layer of, of fun of, you know, like I, another thing I was telling my wife, like it's not just about riding. get to go sit down and trolley and design my new helmet, you know, and, I get to get my, my custom kit. And then now I'm like working on my own paint job and my own wrap for my, my own frames to go. Like it's, it's really cool. It's like being a kid again and, and like almost getting to design your own Christmas. You know, you get to it's a, yeah, really, really fortunate and really looking forward to it. So yeah, and I appreciate it. Want me to be on the podcast. Thank you. I will just press stop now and we just wait and see how much it uploaded already.